How to Transition Out of Your 9-5 with Curiosity & Confidence with Jen Shultz

Do you believe you have what it takes to create sustainable wealth outside of a salaried job?

Do you believe you have what it takes to create sustainable wealth outside of a salaried job? In this episode Jen Shultz shares how every woman has what it takes to create their own abundance using the skills they have already acquired but maybe not recognized! Jen shares her vulnerable journey from teaching in a low-income school, to independent contractor, to then teaching other women how to create the freedom just as she has. Jen shares practical questions, advice and ideas so you too can live a “non 9 to 5” life!

In this episode we chat about:

Imposter syndrome, mental health and how you can still move forwards.

Finding clarity in the fog of life as it is.

The responsible way to transition out of traditional work and into a lifestyle of freedom.

Doing the things because you are afraid.

Navigating personal attacks in business.

And so much more!

Connect with Jen here:

In 2010 Jen Shultz, Founder of The Non-Nine-to-Five™ found herself battling anxiety and depression. During this dark time, she received an intuitive persistent message urging her to create a business and generate an income on her own terms. That year, Jen went against all "safe norms", followed the call, and quit her full-time teaching job to become self-employed.

For over 8 years Jen has been educating, training, and coaching conscientious high-level women who have a deep knowing they are not meant for the 9-5. She leads the women she works with into successful and sustainable self-employment so they can tap into their unique skills and strengths, make a difference in the lives of others, generate an income on their own terms, and never go back to a 9-5 job.

Jen is a highly intuitive educator and coach as well as an international speaker on a mission to empower as many women as she can to stop feeling stuck in the 9-5 grind and strongly step into purposeful, successful, and sustainable self-employed work!

Jen holds a BA in Communication (University at Albany), MA in Special & General Education (New York University) and is a certified professional coach through iPEC (Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching).


(03:25) Jen shares her journey from anxiety, depression and extreme low self-esteem in her teaching job at a high achieving charter school in the Bronx to independent contract tutoring and self-employment entrepreneurship.

(10:15) How to begin the transition from 9 to 5 to starting a business.

(13:34) Resilience when transitioning to a non 9 to 5 role when faced with financial implications.

(20:00) Using divine guidance, higher powers, Christianity and God to lean into abundance, success and wealth.

(26:00) Jen shares her highest and lowest moments in her 12 years as a business owner.



people, business, self employment, important, started, meant, happening, moment, jen, feel, work, share, job, women, laying, called, client, amazing, depression, dark


Paula Shepherd, Jen Schultz

Paula Shepherd 00:01

Hi, I'm Paula Shepherd, I went to college to get a good job and make a lot of money. Back then, no one talked about doing what you love. And while I successfully climbed the corporate ladder, I felt like there was something missing. So I left the seemingly comfortable corporate world at 40 years old for the freedom of full time entrepreneurship. Today, I get to help ambitious women go from entrepreneur to competent CEO of their lives and businesses. I created this podcast to share what I've learned with you to make your journey just a little easier, and to connect you with other incredible business owners who took a chance on themselves and who they are becoming. So whether you're just getting started, are all in or just when you hear friendly voice, come on in and sit with us. Now, let's dive in. Welcome to another episode of the competence Sessions. Today, I have with me, founder of the non nine to five Jen Schultz, and why this episode is so important today is there are a lot of people that are really struggling with the same kinds of challenges right now, after years of the pandemic. And Jen took the big leap a long time ago, long before anything ever happened with COVID. And she found herself really battling with anxiety and depression, and kept feeling this urge and this nudge to create a business and generate more income on her terms. And we're gonna get more into her story. But over the last eight years, she's been educating and training and really coaching high level women who have a deep desire and know that they they weren't meant for this nine to five cog. She's she's now leading women that she works with into successful and substantial and sustainable self employment so that they can tap into their magic. And today she's with us to talk about her story, how she started, how she supports women. And you know, we like to pull threads and get into some other topics here too. So Jen, welcome to the competent sessions.

Jen Schultz 02:25

Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for that beautiful introduction.

Paula Shepherd 02:30

Well, it's all about you. And that's what makes it beautiful. Ah, well, I like to start kind of at the beginning. And I think for you, that's really an important place to start. I feel like I'm gonna start busting into song here a little Julie's Julie Andrews action. But, you know, there's this moment that so many of us in entrepreneurship, or even I'm just not even gonna say entrepreneurs, even professional women where they go, is this it? And it sounds like there was this time for you where you were riddled with anxiety and depression. And I assume that wasn't all because of your job. But would you take us back to that moment where you felt like you were floundering and struggling and wobbling, and what led you to move forward?

Jen Schultz 03:20

Yeah, thank you. And, and actually, before I share that, it wasn't all I realised, in retrospect, it wasn't all the job. There were other things that I learned about myself down the line as to why I was in such a depressed place and an anxious space. But the story kind of goes like this i At that time, that was 2010. I was a founding teacher at AI high performing charter school in the South Bronx of New York City. It was a very rigorous school, and we definitely had very high standards that we had to work up to or work towards or achieve. And I found myself starting to really struggle with fully showing up as a teacher in the school. And I have a very vivid memory of waking up around five 515 in the morning. So waking up in the dark, leaving the house or leaving my apartment in New York City around six 615. Walking to the subway, taking a subway, getting off the subway, getting on another subway, taking that subway to the stop, I had to get off of getting off and then walking in a very impoverished neighbourhood still in the dark to get to the school and then doing the reverse commute back. But I think important for me to say when I did the reverse commute back it was also in the dark because I was at the school for pretty late hours and I was doing this five days a week. And so this just started to to sort of hammer on me or beat down on me. Now, I think it's important to say though, too, that this is not the case for everybody. There were teachers in my school who were super happy there. And they were doing the same more or less types of commute. But it started to really again beat down on me. And because the school was very rigorous, we were super high performing. And it made sense that we were because we were working with at risk youth, we were giving children who wouldn't have the opportunity to get a really fantastic education had this charter not been around. And everything started happening, more or less, let's just call it all at once. And I started to feel my self esteem, just kind of go out the window, I started to hear a really loud, negative raging voice telling me that I was a loser, telling you that I couldn't cut it. I couldn't handle the school what was wrong with me? Why was I so such a mess and feeling so down, and I was the worst teacher in the school. And I had that happening. And at the same time as that was habitant, I started to get these little nudges, love, maybe little moments of clarity. But if you've ever experienced depression, nothing is clear. There's no such thing as clarity, when you're depressed, you're just, you're just trying to get by day by day. But there were these little sort of pockets and this little voice saying, hey, you know, maybe you're meant to go out on your own. Maybe, you know, you do love teaching, because I did I loved being with my students, I love being able to see them get something, you know, really built to transfer that knowledge for them, and see them be able to solve a problem or, you know, read something in a book that they weren't able to read before. And to make a very long story short, at the end of 2010. I walked into the school on a Monday morning, and I gave two weeks notice. Now important for me to say that when I gave two weeks notice, I wasn't like yay, this is amazing. And I'm amazing, and all sudden, everything's different. I was still really depressed. But it felt like it was what I needed to do. And I left the school. And what ended up happening was, I was able to secure for myself within a couple of weeks or so after leaving independent contracting work as a as a tutor more or less for a private tutoring agency. And I also had a background in special education. So I was able to work with, you know, different populations of students that had different learning disabilities, etc. And they placed me with one student, and they gave me a second student, then they gave me a third student. And then my dad said to me, as all this is kind of happening and transpiring, he says to me one day, why don't you start your own tutoring business? And I thought, I don't know, why don't I because I've had this feeling of going out on my own. And I'm sort of doing it the independent contracting work, while I am doing it via independent contracting work, because, you know, I don't I didn't, I wasn't working full time for someone saying, you have to do it this way. You have to say it this way, it's got to look this way. You can't say this to the parents who can't see the teach the kids in this way. And then that led me to starting my first business called teacher on the go. And then as I brought on more students, I worked with more families, it was I was so much more happier. And I realised for myself, Oh, this is the path that I meant to go on. I just don't fit well. It doesn't fit for me to be in a regular nine to five job. It's not a match for who I am. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And then two and a half years later, I started the non and a five because I had the realisation of if I was able to leave my job, stand on my own two feet without a full time job and pursue self employment work. Others not only what would others be able to do it, but that they could use support and doing it because I knew there had to be others like me out there. And that's how the story goes of how I started this.

Paula Shepherd 09:26

So I'm curious how when you're in that the midst of this depression, and I think it's really one of the most important things. The points that I want to make here is when you're in this state of overwhelm, and you're not really sure why just treating it as mindset is really dangerous. So I appreciate the fact that you're calling that you know what you what you are anxiety and depression. How did you decide okay, this isn't it, but I'm going to do these independent contractor roles. Because there might be people that are listed I'm saying I'm really miserable over here. But I'm afraid to take this leap. Because if I do, and I don't have motivation to do this, what makes me believe that I'll be motivated to do something when I have no structure? And I have to create it? Mm hmm.

Jen Schultz 10:15

Yeah. You know, there isn't a like clear answer to that question or like a one size fits all, I find that a lot of the non nine to five journey, starting a business being self employed, is about is a bit about trial and error, and the willingness to do that, and the willingness to be uncomfortable. What comes to my mind, though, is that the, for the most part, the women that I work with are in a nine to five job, and many of them aren't sure what that non nine to five is meant to look like. And it's scary. Of course, it's scary. If you've been in a job for years, that's gonna feel like Insanity, and all of a sudden, just leave and become self employed. It's a completely different world, it's a completely different life, it is no small feat. If anyone says like, it's so easy to just start a business. So not true. But with the women that I work with, I don't tell women, hey, just go quit your job, just go quit. And just well, we're just going to get you to start a business, I think that'd be really irresponsible of me. And also, it's important that I take a holistic approach, where are you at? And what can you handle with where you're at? And we lay down baby steps, but I'm sort of not getting specific. So let me get specific here. So if someone came to me and said, I'm in this full time job, I'm getting this feeling that I've mentioned to be in business that I want to be self employed. But I don't know, what can I do? So I actually have a series of questions that women can ask themselves, so just to kind of start to see, and I won't give you all of those questions. But one of the questions that I really love, because it can really spark a lot of different thoughts is, what hardships have I overcome in my life, that I could help someone overcome themselves. And it starts to spark, well, what are things in my life that have felt hard? They it doesn't have to be, I want to make sure I'm saying this in a responsible way. It doesn't have to be a very big trauma in your life, because that's absolutely a hardship. It could be what it could be. I'm making this up off the cuff, like you wanted to build a website, and you taught yourself how to do it on your own. So the fact that you were able to teach yourself on the own on your own, tells you that you didn't know. So if you didn't know, it was probably hard at first. But then you taught yourself how to do it, and you spent the time doing it. On the other side of it's like, Oh, I could potentially teach someone how to build a website, or I could build websites for someone else. So with that one question, you just start to get curious, you start to look, you start to see. And then when someone's working with me, we go to work together on what could this be? What are the things we're also passionate about? What could we create? And if you feel called to that, let's start laying some steps down. And if not, let's go a different direction. I hope I answered your question. I just kind of went all over.

Paula Shepherd 13:37

No, that's I think that's great. I think what you're saying is, is truly the foundational piece, it's having that element of curiosity. Right. And, and I agree with that, that's where I always start what's possible. I mean, we're teaching people something all the time. And of course, coaching and teaching two totally different things, right. But just being able to walk people through the experience that we've been through with the framework that we use, and allowing them to discover more about themselves. So I I love that you use that as an example. Now one of the challenges that folks have you left your job and you were able to find some contracting work. I see people think, well, if I leave this and this is true with entrepreneurship, so I'm just gonna this is it. Entrepreneurship is not the silver bullet, right? It's not the end, everything is just easier. And you just decide you're going to teach people and it's going to be amazing, and it's going to be awesome, and you're always going to make all the money that you want to make. It doesn't work that way, right? Just like Target doesn't have a sale of the same sales quarter every single quarter. It does look different. And so it requires a little bit of resilience. When people are afraid maybe there's the wife is a breadwinner of the family. I experienced this myself. How how do you get them to a place where or how Are you shifting? Maybe if from your own experience? Maybe you could say that? How did you shift to a place where you weren't afraid about the financial impact? Your your, the possibility of what you could achieve was greater, and being able to let that go?

Jen Schultz 15:15

I mean, to be honest with you, I don't think there ever was a time where I wasn't afraid. I

Paula Shepherd 15:20

love that. Thank you for your honesty. Yeah.

Jen Schultz 15:23

And still now. Because it's money is, is the, the hottest topic there will ever be, I think out of all the topics in the world. Um, because of how our world in our society runs and is and is built. I've never well, maybe I shouldn't say never. But money is something that I've been afraid of for for a very long time. And especially in those beginning stages, more so then, perhaps the now. But yeah, I Gosh, I don't know, Paula, like, I'm trying to think like, what else could I add to that, because I'm like, it's always going to be there. Because it is such a hot topic. But what I what I think is important, is that for myself, um, two things that come to my mind, one is having support in place. So I have my own mentor and, and coaches like coaches. So I have my mentor, and then she has coaches around her that I work with. And knowing that I'm working with someone that's been there, done that, that my mentor, I think filed for bankruptcy. I'm 100 Yeah, I'm 99 point 99%. Sure, she filed for bankruptcy at some point. And, and knowing what she went through to create what she did. And having that support in place that support really going like you can do this. And I'm giving you the tools to do this. And I do the same thing with the women I work with as well. I'm giving them all the tools that I've either used or created over these past. I mean, now it's been I've been self employed almost 12 years.

Paula Shepherd 17:21

And we just stop and celebrate that first. That's huge. I think, if you can get past the first year, and then the second year, but now 12 years in, you're still at it. That's amazing.

Jen Schultz 17:31

Yes, yes. And let me let me call out to just because I've been self employed for 12 years, does not mean that every year has been this like rainbows and butterflies of like it's raining money. It's it's No, it hasn't been like that.

Paula Shepherd 17:50

No, 10 No. 10k months and 10 days when you first got off the you know, got out of your job. Yeah, thank you for calling attention. These are really important things. And you know, it kind of you guys are listening to this, please understand that. Every moment isn't happy and amazing and not work. And I know there's this whole laptop, laptop lifestyle facade that's been put out there and you can start to think I don't belong, I don't belong. It's not working for me. And the reality is that every time you take a step forward, it's working for you. I want to reflect for a moment, Jen on what you said about your job. You said I was going to work in the morning in the dark. And I was coming home from work in the dark. And when you said that I thought about the job that I had where I was in hotel sales, where it was the same thing. And it was really depressing. I never got to see the sun shore could walk outside for five minutes, or office was in a basement. But I wasn't living. I was dying. I wasn't making a paycheck. Yes, absolutely. Was I good at my job? Yes. Did I have people there that I loved Yeah. But I just at the end of the day I wasn't living and so what's more important? Is it more important that you that you live that you have this state of joy? Or is it more important for you to have this what you believe is income that is safe and steady. And to hope one day you'll be able to spend it or to just buy something that looks good, you know, keeping up with the Joneses on the outside and it sounds like you decided that for your own mental health and, and sanity that you chose a different way of of wealth and abundance and that was reinvesting in yourself in and saying no to something that wasn't bringing you true joy and inspiration anymore.

Jen Schultz 19:55

Yes. I think you said that really, really well. And Something I think that's important to add. And I and I am in no way meaning that anyone has to believe this, but this is what has become important for me is my belief in a higher power, and that higher power guiding me. So for myself personally, and again, this doesn't mean that anyone else has to take this path or go this course, over the past year and a half, I've been diving into Christianity, which was never a thing for me, it's been a personal choice for myself. Um, and because of that I've stayed open to God and what that means, and as an I've been going to a local church, and I've met people from the church. And I started to really lean into something interesting that a, an old family friend has said to me is that God has a timeline for me, and his timeline for me is better than mine will ever be. And in the darkest times, God is there, he sees me, he's there. And there, and I firmly believe there's always a reason why I'm experiencing a darker time, a harder time, a depressed time. There is something for me to learn. And there is something on the other side of that. As a, as a human being. I also have learned that no matter what age I am at, I'm always meant to be maturing, and growing and learning. And if you're someone who values maturation learning and growth, you're gonna go through some incredibly uncomfortable times, painful times, because people who are not experiencing pain, first and foremost, I think that it's not true, because everyone experiences pain in some way.

Paula Shepherd 22:11

Yeah, everybody's not always fine, even though they say so. Yeah.

Jen Schultz 22:15

Um, and right, and they're either just not sharing about it, or they're covering it up. Sure, right, like are we're coping or we're numbing in some way, in some way, shape, or form. So I feel like I'm totally going off track. But I feel like it's so important to share this because I have gone through some excruciatingly painful times over the past 12 years, and they're not done, they're going to keep happening. There are going to be times where it's like that I like this visual, you know, the duck, that's kind of like coasting along the water, but you don't see the legs that are like going like this. And the duck is you see this with the legs are going like that.

Paula Shepherd 22:55


Jen Schultz 22:57

Yeah. And I and it needs to be owning a business needs to be a choice, absolutely. But a choice that's coming from a deeper place. So for me, and the women I work with, it's I am on this earth to impact others to make a difference in the lives of others. And I am meant to use my own uniqueness, my own strengths, my talents, my gifts and my skills. And as I'm doing this, and again, my belief, my higher power, God universe, the divine, whatever you want to call it, is there with me along the way. So I know for myself, I'm clear, I wasn't clear 12 years ago, but I'm clear the work I'm doing is what God wants me to do. He wants me to help others so they can become the women that they always want it to be, or become the women that they knew they were always meant to be via self employment.

Paula Shepherd 24:01

I like it. I and I don't think that you went off track at all. I think that having these kinds of conversations is important. And it requires us to get quiet, it really does require us to not be spinning our wheels all the time to figure that out. And that's where that curiosity you mentioned earlier and asking questions. It's not about I think sometimes people come into scenarios where we're feeling so much pain and so much discomfort that we just want somebody to tell us what to do. Because we think that that's the answer. I mean, I've been there I can I can tell you, I've got I just don't know what to do anymore. Just tell me what to do. And I'll just do it. And I think there there is an extent there comes a time where yes, maybe there are some things that somebody can help you roadmap together, right? Certainly we do that with our clients. But there is a time where you have to stop that constant motion. And you do need to ask yourself the really important questions do you Want to continue to live like this? Or is there a better way? And is there a better way through self employment, not believing that self employment is going to generate you $100,000 Right off the bat in the first year. But understanding that, you know, maybe you can keep your job and start building this thing on the side. What does that look like for you? What fears? You know, some people don't have fears around that other people want to hide in some ways, like, what does that look like for you? And knowing that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing, it doesn't have to be a leap, and the net will appear situation sometimes. Sometimes there is a safety net. And I think that that makes all the difference for people. What What would you say has been like one of the your toughest moments, if you're willing to share in the last 12 years for business for you just to give people a peek at Yes, this is hard. And then I'm going to ask you what your your best moment is. But I want to just for a minute, what what is one of the most challenging moments that you've had in your business, maybe it was a time that you wanted to just throw in the towel, and go back to a nine to five,

Jen Schultz 26:09

there have been so many times like that, to be really frank with you, there have been? Oh, um, you know, I'm going to share one that's actually somewhat recent, it was end of last year, beginning of this year, I had a client, and they're sort of like two things that come together. So I had a client curse me out on the phone, and scream and yell at me. And I'd never had that happen before. And I felt that I handled the situation well, and as calmly as possible. And then after this situation, there was a another connection with this person. And this person told me that my business was a scam. And then I share that, because what I've had to learn and practice, and the only way to learn is to go through times like this, is that this actually was not a personal attack on me. And it was not a personal attack on my business. The moment that I got off of both of those calls with this person, my heart was racing, I was shaking and sweating, because I couldn't believe what had just transpired. And I'm sure I cried. It didn't last that long, though. Because then I was able to come back from it and kind of go, okay, knowing the work I've done with this person. Does this sort of make sense? And it was like, Yes, actually, I remembered our very first connection. And something felt a little bit off. And I probably didn't follow my intuition. 100%. And I continued to work with this person regardless, and this has anything to do with me, no, this is this person's stuff. Because chances are, if they spoke that way, to me, they're doing it in other areas of their life. And I just happened to be the one to receive it, because they didn't like what they were getting. And the interesting thing about this work is that it's going to make you uncomfortable. I coach I teach and I educate not to I don't know what the word is like not to make everything seem like it's all rainbows and sunshine.

Paula Shepherd 28:40

You're not coddling people. No,

Jen Schultz 28:43

I always, I always look at making my delivery, when I'm sharing something that I see in the in the in the nicest, nicest guy to work with think of like the nicest way possible. But really letting that person know is like, Hey, I'm taking a stand for you. This is what I see. These are the steps I'm seeing you need to take, are you willing to do this? And and again, with with this person, there really wasn't a willingness. It ended up transpiring this way. When you go into business, you don't think anything like Well, for me, I never thought anything like that would happen. But I stuck to what I knew was the truth. And what I knew was right to do.

Paula Shepherd 29:29

I think that is it right there is there's those moments where you know, all that stuff that you mentioned before all the imposter syndrome. I'm not meant for this. And it's like that band aid gets ripped off and all of a sudden you're like, Well, maybe maybe all those things are true. And you have to talk yourself off the ledge and I think after years of being in business, you have the ability to not let that cripple you because you can say okay, what part of this is mine? What am I hearing here? What could I have done better? And then what It maybe it maybe it was maybe I should have listened to my intuition and not taking that client. We've all been there.

Jen Schultz 30:05

Well, that's what it was, I can tell you that now, in retrospect, I should have never have stepped foot, I should have never walked forward with that particular person. We were not a match for each other.

Paula Shepherd 30:15

But as a bit as here's the thing, as a heart centred business owner, you want to help people, and I think we get to the point where we go, I can't help everybody. And is that worth the heartache, the turmoil, the chaos that it can potentially bring, I'm not sure that I'm the right person, maybe there's a referral I can make. We learned that over time. So I appreciate you sharing that because it does give people the the ideal that when you leave your job, those difficult conversations that you have don't end. Now, on the other side of things, there are some really amazing benefits to owning your own business, right. And there's a lot we're not discussing here, like deconditioning yourself from your job, and all of those things that you and I both have had to go through. But what is some really amazing moment that you can remember, maybe it's, you know, you're in your top three moments of Damn, I'm glad I'm a business owner.

Jen Schultz 31:12

Yeah, oh, my gosh, there's so many, you know, I mean, just one that comes to my mind is that when a client is celebrating something that they've really worked towards, and I get to join in that celebration with them, like, I've taught them a process of how I have a teaching called How to Use heart and soul marketing. So I have this term called Heart and Soul marketing. And they're laying down the steps of heart and soul marketing. And they're connecting with someone, and they're using what I'm sharing with them of how to have a really deeply connected sales conversation. And they go, Oh, my gosh, I just brought on my first client, in this package that I designed. Like, that gives me chills, because as a as a teacher in me, I know that they're taking what I'm sharing with them, they're laying it down, they're staying the course. And then they're having this moment of oh my gosh, this just happened. And I get to celebrate that with them. That just feels so amazing to me.

Paula Shepherd 32:14

i That's like the coolest thing, isn't it? When you're like, oh my gosh, and it's not really about us. But it's so amazing to be like, you put in the effort and you did the work and you were there. And it's so good. Oh my gosh, well, Jen, I really could talk to you forever. But I know that you're helping so many people who are just really considering right now, in all of the shifts. Some people are being laid off right now during this time as there's restructuring happening. There are a lot of people that are in this state of like, I don't like to call it struggle necessarily. But this wobble this I'm not really sure. But I've been have this nagging urge that I'm I'm ready to maybe try my hand at this. And not just the I'm gonna play it business. But I, I really want to set something up so it can succeed and sustain me if I were to be laid off, right, like having that in place. What's the best place for people to find and connect with you to start that relationship with you and explore?

Jen Schultz 33:15

Yeah, thank you. So my website is the non nine to all spelled out and letters. And I'm also on Instagram, same thing that non nine to five all spelled out.

Paula Shepherd 33:27

Beautiful. Yeah. All right. I'm going to include all of Jen's links in the show notes, please make sure that you go and connect with her. She's amazing. She is one of those people that will have an actual conversation with you. She will she won't punch you to a DM and revert you to you know, text. She's amazing. She is very much like me in terms of the way that she loves to connect and follow up with people. So you can count on having a, you know, a lifetime connection when it comes to Gen. Gen. Any wise kind of golden nugget you want to leave us with before we close out.

Jen Schultz 34:02

Oh my gosh. Well, here I'll I'll leave you with this. If self employment is something that you feel is calling to your heart because I really do believe it's a calling. You are meant to follow that 100% You are called to do that. And you can start taking those steps.

Paula Shepherd 34:24

Beautiful. All right, everybody. Well, thank you so much for listening today. Thanks for joining us. Connect with Jen. Jen. Thank you again for being here and sharing all of your knowledge and expertise with us and being so vulnerable doing it. Alright everyone, I'll see you on another episode of The confidence sessions. Until next time. Thank you for listening to this episode of The confidence sessions. I know there are hundreds of 1000s of podcasts and I'm so grateful that you chose to spend your time today with me. Head on over to the courage forward slash podcast to check out the show notes From today's episode and grab links to all the amazing goodies mentioned today if you love this episode as much as I loved making it make sure you don't miss out on any future ones by hitting the subscribe button right now see you next time

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