Having Courageous Conversations - Diversity, Equity & Inclusion with Antoinetta Mosley

What does it mean to be diverse, equitable and inclusive in your business and your life? It is not enough to just take performative action!

What does it mean to be diverse, equitable and inclusive in your business and your life? It is not enough to just take performative action! In today’s episode Antoinetta Mosely, CEO and DEI strategist, shares the importance of following the PACE framework and how you should not “DIY your DEI”. She shares how teaching courageous conversations as a skill can help build a culture where people are celebrated, not tolerated. Antoinetta shares the truth behind allies and advocates, advocating for your own needs and her personal mantra “Giggle. Pray. Make magic!”

In this episode we chat about:

Antoinetta’s journey into DEI.

Cultivating courageous skills.

Having ground rules around uncomfortable conversations.

Where to find DEI resources.

And so much more!

Antoinetta Mosley is the CEO and Principal Leader at I Follow the Leader LLC, a strategic consulting firm specializing in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) strategy, initiatives, and education. As a Certified Diversity Professional (CDP), Antoinetta has worked on a range of projects for organizations of all sizes, including small to global nonprofits as well as Fortune 500 companies and travels the country as a sought-after speaker on DEI, courageous conversations, and belonging in the workplace.

Connect with Antoinetta!







(03:30) Antoinetta’s journey into diversity & inclusion in leadership during her graduate program.

(06:00) How to cultivate courage with daily habits to build courageous skills.

(08:50) The importance of allies and advocates in the diversity space.

(12:00) Cultivating the skill of diversity conversations. Ground rules

(14:45) Why it’s important to have professional DEI advice and performative practices.

(17:40) Ways to ensure you are using equitable and diverse services.

(19:51) Approaching DEI after pausing and exploring, not jumping to action.

(20:45) Where to find DEI resources for individuals and small business owners/entrepreneurs.

(23:55) How the pandemic has impacted having comfortable or uncomfortable conversations.

(28:00) Setting boundaries to be celebrated, not tolerated. Advocating for yourself.



people, courageous conversations, courageous, courage, conversation, started, individuals, dei, acknowledging, companies, leadership, person, cultivate, celebrated, listening, leader, uplift, organisations, step, feel


Antoinetta Mosley, Paula Shepherd

Paula Shepherd 00:01

Hi, I'm Paula Shepherd, I went to college to get a good job and make a lot of money. Back then, no one talked about doing what you love. And while I successfully climbed the corporate ladder, I felt like there was something missing. So I left the seemingly comfortable corporate world at 40 years old for the freedom of full time entrepreneurship. Today, I get to help ambitious women go from entrepreneur to competent CEO of their lives and businesses. I created this podcast to share what I've learned with you to make your journey just a little easier, and to connect you with other incredible business owners who took a chance on themselves and who they are becoming. So whether you're just getting started, are all in or just when you hear friendly voice. Come on in and sit with us. Now, let's dive in.

Paula Shepherd 01:03

Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The confidence sessions. This week is a conversation that you've heard me have before but maybe not on the podcast. And the amazing woman that I have with me today is Antoinette Mosley. She is the CEO and principal leader at ifollow. The leader which is a strategic consulting firm that specialises in diversity, equity and inclusion, the strategy initiatives and education behind it, she is a certified diversity professional. And she's worked on a wide range of projects for organisations of all sizes and calibres including small to global nonprofits, as well as fortune 500 companies. And she travels the country as a sought after speaker on dei courageous conversations and belonging in the workforce. Welcome to the competent sessions.

Antoinetta Mosley 02:00

Thank you. So happy to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me and just thank you for all the work you're doing.

Paula Shepherd 02:09

You know, I said to you earlier, before we started recording that you are such a busy lady, I see you travelling all over the place. So as we're reading your bio, and you know how you're travelling the country as a sought after after speaker, I see that I see the truth behind that. And I think to me, that's one of the most amazing things about you is your courage and your demonstration of really truth and integrity.

Antoinetta Mosley 02:38

Thank you. Yeah, I think we all have to cultivate courage daily. And so it's not something that you arrive it every single day, I'm trying to make more courageous decisions and choices, really, as a model for others. And I believe if you are a change agent really wanting to make the world a better place. That that is each of our roles is to be courage curators, and to help others, you know, move further along.

Paula Shepherd 03:09

And you You started this journey on courageous conversations back in your graduate school leadership class. Can you tell me a little bit about how that went down? What happened? You were in graduate class and you went, Holy crap, something isn't working here. I have to help.

Antoinetta Mosley 03:27

Yeah, it sounds funny, but it really did happen. Like that I was in. Oddly enough, a leadership class, I was getting my NPA, for nonprofit leadership. And we were in a class one day, and the conversation came to diversity and leadership. And we had a conversation, I had a professor, he was a white male from England. And we just started talking about how we were reading from all white males in this leadership class. But the class was not made up of all white males. And so we had this really courageous conversation that was really beautiful, with the professor and the class and my classmates around why is it this way? Why is most reading in our graduate school courses? Even if, right, the professor isn't white, we're still being assigned majority white reading, etc. And we had a very diverse group of individuals. And I said, I need to do something about this. This needs to change. And so I actually changed my graduate school project paper topic. I was going to write about B Corporations and there wasn't enough research and I said, this is perfect. Change my topic to diversity and nonprofit leadership, overcoming barriers. I interviewed CEOs across the country about what they were doing well and what they wanted to do better around diversity, equity and inclusion. And yeah, Yeah, that is pretty soon after that leadership class I started, I follow the leader started as a leadership blog, were those of a different feather could could soar together. And now it's, you know, years later, and we're still going,

Paula Shepherd 05:17

Oh, my gosh. And I can imagine that having that conversation will one. Yes, courageous, but also a little nerve wracking to have that in the classroom. Because I've been in IT environments before. And not as the necessarily the minority in the room, right? Where it's still felt really hard for me to state the obvious that maybe other people didn't see. What would be your recommendations? Or are your recommendations for people when they're in that scenario, when they see something that doesn't feel right, or fair, or equitable? And they want to say something, but they're afraid to speak up?

Antoinetta Mosley 05:59

Yeah, I think it really is difficult. And like I said, even for me, it's still difficult, there's still the uncomfortability. And so something I say is that courage doesn't equal comfort. And so we have to first acknowledge that it won't always be comfortable to make a courageous decision that impacts ourselves and others. So first is acknowledging that it's likely going to be uncomfortable, and then acknowledging that it has to be cultivated. So just like any other skill, or if you want to be a better cook, or you want to work out more, right, that's gonna take a daily habit of improving yourself to wow, this is easier to be the courageous, it's easier to say what's on my mind to be authentic to share. And so those are two things First, acknowledging it's not always going to be comfortable, and then to starting to cultivate that skill. And if you're in spaces, right, like this, or you're around other people, like, Paula, you're such a courageous leader. And so also, can I find the community and people where I started to believe that courage is contagious. And so I started to learn, right, I started to learn from Paul and others around me, and so I can then do some of the things I'm doing because wow, Paul is a courageous CEO. And I see her living, right, her best life, I think I

Paula Shepherd 07:24

can do is, Oh, I love it. Because there are strength in numbers, I think, right? In order to create the movement, there always has to be that one person that's daring and ready to step out. And you don't really realise that there's somebody else over there doing the same thing, you just haven't connected with them yet. And when you're able to find those people, that's such a great, I think you just simplified it for everybody without even really probably realising it. It's about reaching out to the people that you see, taking bold moves, and making and starting courageous conversations and stepping up and raising their hand and befriending them and telling them that they're doing a great job and that you want to be around more of that. So you can be more of that and learn from them. And then it's like a snowball effect. It's an anvil avalanche coming down the hill at you. Oh, my gosh, I'm just like, totally blown away, because I do. I just know, I know that. That's how it feels that but but I will also say, I think, you know, being a white woman, is it difficult for me at being a woman to start these conversations right to step up, right? Absolutely. But when I'm talking about, you know, other women of colour, who, who have far less privilege than I do, being able to raise your hand and step up is really hard. What is the importance of allies in this situation?

Antoinetta Mosley 08:51

Gosh, so important, right? Allies and advocates. So you think about, you know, I luckily, had a teacher in high school, Mrs. Angelique Jordan, right. She, she introduced Maya Angelou and me and all these other people and so, right Maya Angelou and people like, Michelle Obama and right Elaine Welter out there people I can look to and say, Wow, you can be courageous you can be authentic and you can still be successful. Right? And so I think it's seeing those examples and then having people who cheerlead you and celebrating the uplift you along the way. So those allies, whether it's people of different races, of different genders of different religions, so people who are willing to uplift you, and I think a lot of us don't have that. In our workplaces, in communities, the people that say yes, you should not be silent. When you're being treated poorly. You should not be silent when things impact you. Right? I think we've somehow gotten away from that humanity of like, we can I'll be different. And we can still celebrate those differences and uplift other people, and especially for minorities and minority women, that it's not a competition. Right. And so I think traditionally, there's been that tokenism. And so that's a way that allies can help to there doesn't have to be one black woman on the stage. Right, there can be multiple black women on the stage.

Paula Shepherd 10:28

Wow. Yeah, I think about my corporate experience, and really looking back to who were the speakers at conferences, and what books were they passing out to the leadership team. And when you stepped into a room filled with leadership and management, who was at the table, and when I look back at it, it, it really, there was zero diversity, let's be really clear. There really wasn't. And then even when there is that tokenism of, well, we have this one person here. So we can say that we're diverse. And I'm really, honestly, I've to two things, I want to go to that direction. But I have one thing that I just want to ask you really quickly that I think is very important. And that is, there are so many people that are wanting to speak up, right? They want to be advocates, they want to be allies, but they're afraid they're gonna get it wrong, they're afraid they're gonna say the wrong thing. Right. They're afraid as you know, as someone that's a, you know, a white and I deal with a lot of, you know, white women when in my work and who I'm working with, and there's already a lot of people pleasing and overthinking. And so being able to speak up on behalf of someone else and feel like I'm gonna get this wrong, or I'm going to offend instead of different defend, what would be your recommendation in that instance, when they're having those thoughts in their head?

Antoinetta Mosley 11:49

Yeah, I think it really does require, again, just that skill, cultivation. And so there are certain ground rules that we use, for example, that I follow the leader, to help teach people to have these conversations, because unfortunately, most of us aren't taught in school, how to create how to have courageous conversations, how to be friends with those who come from different backgrounds, and what equity and inclusion truly means. And so it is a skill that I believe has to really be cultivated. And so some of the things that people can do is one, right learning and so education, there are best practices for having these type of types of conversations. I don't recommend just going out and having them right, you may need help in the beginning. And so starting with ground rules, we had a conversation today. And we started with ground rules. And so even teaching people that when you disagree, let's use Yes. And but a lot of us use Yes, but and so then right, that person's already defensive. You said yes. But and says yes. And so yes, I agree with that. And here's something that adds, so that's an example of something using right going kind of back to childhood and using a practice that's called Ouch, and oops. And so if someone says something offensive, you're able to say ouch. So you can then pause there and help to explain why did you say that Ouch. Right. And that gives the person the chance to say, oops, or I'm going to do better. And so some of these small practices can be very impactful. But unfortunately, if a lot of us don't know them, then it can seem easier to not have the conversation versus doing it wrong or offending someone. And so we try to teach people, right, we're gonna offend each other, but there's ways that we can still grow and learn through it.

Paula Shepherd 13:50

And I know that this applies to everyone. Right? I bet you you work with a lot of companies. And over the last couple of years, right, there's, there's been a lot. I mean, there's, there's been a lot in history, right. But I think with the rise of digital media, particularly during the course of the pandemic, we've had a lot of exposure to things, injustices and equities, right? That are so I can even so wrong on so many levels that feel really hard to navigate. And I imagine that there are the story I tell myself is that there are a lot of companies now that are saying, oh, we need to do something, or oops, we need to do something. And is should we believe that these companies are doing this because it's the right thing to do and they want to learn or because they have to or they feel like they have to they have to check that box to go see but we're doing this work?

Antoinetta Mosley 14:52

Yeah, I think there's some clues and us as individuals, right can look to companies to see whether you're Searching for a job or trying to decide where to shop or who right which nonprofit to donate for, there was this societal pressure to check the box right to pull di off the shelf and then put it back on. And so something I say is don't DIY or DI, which means don't just make it up, right. This is many people's lives. And so unfortunately, we see so many people still today. Unfortunately, as we're recording this, Walmart just pulled Juneteenth ice cream from the shelves. Because people were really outraged. It had right Pan African colours, that is not right, American Black History colours. So right to go back, even though what you said earlier, I think we're all going to make mistakes, whether we're a large company or an individual, but they've already pulled this. So when something is pooled, so immediately, it makes me think, did you go through the process? Right to vet this thoroughly? Did you go to your head of di, who I believe there's as a black male? Did you go through the proper channels? Did you talk to black people about? Would you like Juneteenth ice cream? Would this make you happy to buy this that we have to Walmart have trademarked? Right, or what would you want? And so for example, a lot of black people said, there's all these black people already making ice cream. So why don't you uplift a black ice cream maker during this time? And so I think what we can do is really look, is this performative? Right? Are people trying to get it right and apologising when they get it wrong? Or are people just trying to right? Perform for the holidays, which I believe, if you look to companies, and they're only saying things during the holidays about equity and inclusion, that's a sign. If their messaging looks great, but you look at their leadership team or who they're supporting, that's a sign right? If you go to the policies page, and you're gonna see me on there, and you look, and you'll see other diverse individuals. That's a sign and so I think us as individuals, we have to do more vetting and ask some of the tougher questions of how are you ensuring that your practices are equitable and inclusive to all?

Paula Shepherd 17:24

Hmm. So how, how are some ways that they could ensure that?

Antoinetta Mosley 17:31

Yeah, yeah, I think right, having the conversation. So that's a really easy way, just opening up the conversation. So we say, through our framework that you have to write leadership has a firm as a strategic priority, you have to be willing to challenge past beliefs and assumptions. And acknowledge it's a journey before you even start, right. That's the starting point of the pace progress framework. If you want to make progress, let's just start right at the beginning first, and I think a lot of companies miss it. And they really are well meaning. And so they're jumping straight to the action steps. When it's like first you need to really pause, affirmative strategic priority, have some of those tough conversations, and then right have a cultural audit, which means listening to people. And so whether you're a company or individual, you can do that you can talk to people, right, who are different genders, ethnicities, etc, than you and just listen to learn. And I think we often don't just listen to learn, right, we want to share our perspectives and, and what we think and so up by uplifting others, sometimes it's just stepping back and listening and learning.

Paula Shepherd 18:49

Yeah, that whole idea of listening, just to listen, right to understand and to learn, versus I'm listening, coworker thinking about in my head, what am I going to say next? How am I going to respond to this? And then we're not really listening, which is such an important communication skill. I see so much of that action taking which is honestly a lot of our culture, which we got to take action we got to take action take quick action, Swift, swift action, gotta take action work hard action, action, right? But when we don't start at the beginning, we can't see where the flaws are. I think that goes with anything but I see how crucial that is when it comes to the work that you do and stepping in with these companies to share hey, here's here's not what we're going to do. But here's first what we're going to explore.

Antoinetta Mosley 19:50

Yeah, that's so beautiful. Even the word explore right that this is a journey and so if I'm going to go on a trip across the country, right most of us aren't just going to go, we're gonna prepare. And so when when you look at the pace framework, it's prepare, assess, commit, execute. So you're doing so much before you even execute the plan. But most of us, right, or a lot of companies are we're taught again, the culture started executing just do something, do it fast. And unfortunately, the repercussions what I've seen is it can do more harm than good. And so doing Dei, the wrong way, right? Being just courageous and just saying what you want out, right? That's, that's not what we want. We want very intentional and pausing and allowing space for others.

Paula Shepherd 20:45

What are some resources that individuals could go to? And look, I know, there's been a lot over the last couple of years where people have suggested reading and books. Certainly that's not enough. It's enough to educate yourself, but not enough to learn and apply. And if you're not part of a company, right, if you're not in a corporate, corporate atmosphere, or a place where you or someone else is preferably you and I follow the leader, but if if someone else is, is executing this and and helping people through their diversity, equity and inclusion, where would individuals where would somebody like me as a small business owner with, you know, not a lot of employees? Where would I go to be able to make that take that first step in making the assessment? Yeah, I

Antoinetta Mosley 21:31

would. So say, to find a community of like minded individuals, right. So we underestimate sometimes the power of being in community with others who don't look like us who have different ideas. And so that's always my first thought is, find people that you probably normally wouldn't have dinner with, may not go to coffee with and join some different organisations, it's going to set you up to get to know people who look differently. And honestly, just hearing other stories, as being able to ask questions is a great place to start. I also think there are just some best practices, right for for business owners and for others. And so even on LinkedIn, there's a lot of really brilliant people giving out free advice and resources. And then they show you if you right, want to have their paid services. So finding some of those people you admire on LinkedIn, and really tuning in right reading their newsletters, so many change agents now are giving people those nuggets, and then actually saying, here's what you can do next. And so finding those people also getting in community, in person, or virtually with those who are different than you, and then just taking those action steps that people offer. But I have given a few during this conversation. And so what's one thing you can take from this conversation? Can you go have coffee with your neighbour you who lives in really who you've talked to, but actually never gotten to know, my husband and I, we've started quarterly going to lunch or brunch, and we switch off who pays our neighbours who are in their 70s. And so you have like, a black couple in their 30s and a white couple in their 70s going to breakfast and just talking about life. And so don't underestimate right, those conversations and how they can help you grow as well.

Paula Shepherd 23:38

Do you think that the pandemic made this an easier topic for us to navigate? Or do you think that it made it more difficult because we're hiding behind the screen? You know, there are a lot of people who are not even sure how to have a conversation with people let a let alone have a conversation. That's courageous.

Antoinetta Mosley 23:55

Yeah, I think it's really complex and really depends on the individual. So I know some individuals who have felt more comfortable sharing, not being like actually around the table, they felt like okay, I'm in my own safe space. So I can share. There's been a lot of studies out that black women in particular, a lot of them don't want to go back into the office because they've had to deal with less microaggressions, etc, during this time. And so I think it really depends on the individual and their style. Some people may feel more comfortable sharing in the Zoom chat versus in person. And so what I encourage individuals and leaders is to make sure you're offering different ways for people to connect and to share. Right so even if you have in person options, make sure you also offer surveys make sure you do have zoom options sometimes. The thing we did today we said you could come on or off camera because people were so emotional about the last two weeks and so I think it's acknowledging that every individual is going to be different. And as inclusive as you can be, the more you're going to reach have the opportunity to reach more people.

Paula Shepherd 25:12

There's so much bravery. You know, we talked about courage and bravery kind of intertwined. That goes into living life in general and having the conversations and the way that you just talked about it, making it accessible in a way that tells everyone that your voice is important. It deserves to be heard. But we're not going to force it to come through one specific channel. And I think that's brave on the part of the person that's facilitating the conversation, right? Because there's a lot of input that Hastur though there's a lot of planning that has to go into that to say, what are we willing to do, particularly in a world where I've been on Zoom calls before where they're like, We don't trust that you're paying attention if your cameras off. And I feel like that's not a fair assessment, or to assume that people when they have their cameras on are more present. Whereas maybe they're more present when they have their camera off, because they feel really uncomfortable on camera. And they can, they can take in and assess the information a lot better without being on camera, and maybe it's just their photo. But I think there's a lot here that you've brought to the table around not just having courageous conversations as it pertains to Dei, but just truly in general, and we're talking about communicating and how to make that more human centred. And you talked about not di why in your Dei. So I want to reinforce that right here with everyone to just, man, there's so much power and knowledge out there at your fingertips to be able to go out and find someone who can support you in this way. And I don't think that there's ever a time that it's too early for you to like, I'm not a gigantic company, or I haven't made X amount of money. It's never too early for you to start this, especially if you're evaluating your culture, and your or your values and the culture that that's going to create as a result. So I would love you talked about a couple of other things here, like really cultivating the courage to not just tolerate what's happening. What is that entail?

Antoinetta Mosley 27:28

Yeah, I think we're in this age. And I have talked to specifically so many women over the past 10 years who have told me I can't leave. Right, they may be in a toxic work culture, and they truly believe I cannot leave, right. And so what I really believe is that we need to be in cultures that celebrate us not tolerate us. And so right organisations have responsibility. But we as individuals have responsibility, that we're not allowing people to treat us a certain way that we can believe, right, that there's people out here who want to value us. And so I think that's something a lesson people really need to learn. It's like you deserve to be celebrated. You don't, you should not be just tolerated in your job in your community, in your household and your place of worship, right in your family. You deserve to be celebrated. And if you're not right, making sure you're setting those boundaries, or leaving situations, right, everyone can't leave immediately. But I believe so many people and I've seen it get mentally stuck. Where, okay, you haven't applied to other jobs, right. So you're being treated, you're in this toxic environment. But you don't even have the courage right now to apply to other jobs to see if you could leave. And so really, through the, you know, I call myself now encouraged curator, because it's a reminder to me that I really want to help people find that courage. Cultivate that courage, because we don't know how long we have on this earth. And so wow, I mean, you deserve to be celebrated. Like I believe every person right has a magic inside of them. And so if you're in a toxic environment, that magic may not get to come out your light may not get to shine.

Paula Shepherd 29:32

Yeah, I have that experience. Right. And we've talked about this before and you're anybody that knows me and is listening has probably heard this story, you know, on repeat, but being in an atmosphere like that, where I didn't feel like and no one would have ever thought Oh, Paula will would hold back. But really holding back and then finally being able to speak out and finding the courage to do it and just being like To hell with it. I'm just gonna say what needs to be said had an and I was very surprised, honestly. Not it. I won't even go with lack of action per se, but truly, that people had no idea that they were doing it. And it really allowed me to see in that moment how important it was for me to speak up. And to assume that and which is really hard, right? I'm not gonna say this as easy but to assume that people are not being malicious, it doesn't make it right. But that people are not being malicious. And that the only way this will change for me or for anyone else is that I advocate for myself, and I tell them, why this didn't feel good. seem right, isn't okay and should never happen again. And what I would have preferred to see instead offering a solution. So I know that some of the work that you do in what you do with people is really helping them to figure out what is the solution because it's not a cookie cutter for every atmosphere. For every job for every organisation for every person, it's going to look courage looks different to everyone. So

Antoinetta Mosley 31:08

I saw her share it yeah, thanks for sharing that story. Because I think it's so important to acknowledge that right? Even those who are owning their own business and who are successful, right, you go through these things, and hopefully it helps you to grow and catapult you to be able to help others.

Paula Shepherd 31:28

Absolutely. Okay. So before we close this out, because you know, I just adore you. And I think the work you're doing is so freakin powerful. You are just seriously changing organisations from the inside out truly, and really affecting people in such brilliant ways. But I want to talk about this little know that you told me about when you graduated, what was on your cap.

Antoinetta Mosley 31:59

Yeah, so I'd said giggle. Pray make magic repeat. One of my best friends from high school actually decorated my grad school cat for me. So it was also just really, really special. Yeah.

Paula Shepherd 32:14

And you apply that in your life every day. Because you're, you're always smiling. You see, you're so optimistic, you see the bright side of everything, but you have truly have so much grit, and are absolutely 100% A leader that people should follow. So thank you for being in my world. I am just so grateful to have you in it and to just be within your orbit and to be learning alongside you and having even more courageous conversations. So thank you for being here. And thank you for being you. Antoaneta

Antoinetta Mosley 32:47

Thank you, Paula. I mean, I appreciate this obviously when I first met you and I'm like brokerage blueprint, I'm like Yes. I love her already and just right our connection and continuing to get to know you and how you're helping so many people. So please check out Paula I like to say this because I know some people from my network will come listen, check out Paula the work she's doing and just appreciate you right, this is what it's about meeting new people connecting uplifting each other. And so thanks for having me.

Paula Shepherd 33:21

Of course, of course. Where's the best place for people to come connect with you?

Antoinetta Mosley 33:25

Yeah, so you can go to my personal website is Antoaneta muesli.com. Or you can go to I follow the leader.com. On social media handles I'm at courage curator I follow the leader is I follow the leader and yeah, just excited to connect with new people help you cultivate courage and learn about you because I believe these relationships should be reciprocal and so can't wait. Please connect with me. We will always love to meet more change agents and people who are helping to make the world a better place.

Paula Shepherd 34:02

That's everybody that's listening right now. So all the links that she just mentioned are in the show notes. So go ahead and click on those connect with her and start making your changes to dei in your world the best way that you can without DIY and yet definitely go follow I follow the leader. So until next time, have a an amazing rest of your week and I will be back next week with another episode of the competent sessions. See you then. Thank you for listening to this episode of The confidence sessions. I know there are hundreds of 1000s of podcasts and I'm so grateful that you chose to spend your time today with me. Head on over to the courage blueprint.com forward slash podcast to check out the show notes from today's episode and grab links to all the amazing goodies mentioned today. If you love this episode, as much as I loved making it, make sure you don't miss out on any future ones by hitting the subscribe button right Now see you next time

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